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DaveVoorhis
Flying Brick Rider
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 223
Location: Derbyshire, UK
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 Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 11:12 am Post subject: Re: TB Sync |
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| Jimmyd wrote: | It got progressively worse, but I started replacing items after a couple of weeks. The bike was actually running pretty good but started to stumble between 4 and 5k on the tach and has gotten progressively worse.
What are the symptoms of a bike that needs a valve adjustment ? |
Throttle body sync usually doesn't get progressively worse, unless someone is progressively messing with it. Having to make significant adjustments to factory sync is typically indicative of engine and/or fuel system wear or damage.
The symptoms of a bike that needs a valve adjustment are poor starting, running, and acceleration when hot. That's usually followed by burnt valves. Then there's no starting, running, or acceleration, or it runs so badly that you wouldn't want to.
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'93 K1100RS
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Jimmyd
Big Brick Rider
Joined: 13 May 2011
Posts: 61
Location: CT/MA Border
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| Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 11:52 am Post subject: Re: TB Sync |
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| DaveVoorhis wrote: | | Jimmyd wrote: | It got progressively worse, but I started replacing items after a couple of weeks. The bike was actually running pretty good but started to stumble between 4 and 5k on the tach and has gotten progressively worse.
What are the symptoms of a bike that needs a valve adjustment ? |
Throttle body sync usually doesn't get progressively worse, unless someone is progressively messing with it. Having to make significant adjustments to factory sync is typically indicative of engine and/or fuel system wear or damage.
The symptoms of a bike that needs a valve adjustment are poor starting, running, and acceleration when hot. That's usually followed by burnt valves. Then there's no starting, running, or acceleration, or it runs so badly that you wouldn't want to. |
It starts well when warmed up. It is runing like junk and acceleration is herky jerky so the acceleration piece sucks.
I just re-gaped the plugs they were all well beyond the .6 in the book all closer to .8. Now the bike seems to warm up quicker and start the poor runnng quicker, it is a warm day today.
The owners manual is a little confusing it shows .6 + 0.1 or (.024 + .004 inch) so I set the gaps someplace between .6 and .7 mm
Since the gap change seemed to make it worse I am planning on trying a new set of plugs. I have never tested the coils.
How do I test for bad valves. I do have a compression tester. I thought I had a problem with a suzuki I owned a few years ago and bought a compression tester. Would a burnt valve be indicated by bad compression in that cylinder.
I have to imagine the cylinder compression would be affected by a bad valve.
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1994 K 1100 RS |
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DaveVoorhis
Flying Brick Rider
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 223
Location: Derbyshire, UK
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| Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 12:24 pm Post subject: Re: TB Sync |
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| Jimmyd wrote: | | How do I test for bad valves. I do have a compression tester. I thought I had a problem with a suzuki I owned a few years ago and bought a compression tester. Would a burnt valve be indicated by bad compression in that cylinder. |
Check the compression on all cylinders. The specific value(s) doesn't matter as much as reasonable consistency across all cylinders. A cylinder with poor compression will show up significantly lower than the rest. Then squirt some motor oil into all cylinders and check again. If you've got worn rings, the compression will increase. If you've got a burned valve (or a broken ring), it won't increase.
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'93 K1100RS
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Inge K.
Flying Brick Rider
Joined: 30 Apr 2011
Posts: 458
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 1:17 pm Post subject: Re: TB Sync |
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| DaveVoorhis wrote: | | Then squirt some motor oil into all cylinders and check again. If you've got worn rings, the compression will increase. If you've got a burned valve (or a broken ring), it won't increase. |
To achieve correct results with this metod, find a nice soft spot in your garden and lay her down on right side........
then you can squirt.
Inge K. |
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Jimmyd
Big Brick Rider
Joined: 13 May 2011
Posts: 61
Location: CT/MA Border
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| Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 1:19 pm Post subject: Re: TB Sync |
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| DaveVoorhis wrote: | | Jimmyd wrote: | | How do I test for bad valves. I do have a compression tester. I thought I had a problem with a suzuki I owned a few years ago and bought a compression tester. Would a burnt valve be indicated by bad compression in that cylinder. |
Check the compression on all cylinders. The specific value(s) doesn't matter as much as reasonable consistency across all cylinders. A cylinder with poor compression will show up significantly lower than the rest. Then squirt some motor oil into all cylinders and check again. If you've got worn rings, the compression will increase. If you've got a burned valve (or a broken ring), it won't increase. |
Did the compression test.
Very consistent from cylinder to cylinder. About 230 in each cylinder.
Based on everything I have heard about the life of these engines, I did not expect to find a problem with compression since this bike has under 50K on the odometer. I was starting to think maybe someone changed the Odometer, and possibly the bike had a lot more miles the 47K, but this bike was in excellent shspe for the year. Looks all original but must have been painted at some point as the K1100 emblem and the RS emblem are missing off the the tail section and windshield. Unless BMW did not put these on the 1994 bikes.
Since the compression is so consistent should I be concerned about a valve adjustment?
I just ordered and will pick and install some Ngk iridium plugs. I have to guess the plugs are not the issue but I will rule this out tomorrow.
Now that sends me in the direction of either the HES or the Coils.
There was an immediate noticeable difference when I re-gaped (decreased) the plugs this morning. To me that points in the direction of the coils more then the HES ....... O please be the coils at least used coils are cheaper then an HES.
Any suggestions???
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1994 K 1100 RS |
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Jimmyd
Big Brick Rider
Joined: 13 May 2011
Posts: 61
Location: CT/MA Border
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| Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:03 pm Post subject: Re: TB Sync |
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| Jimmyd wrote: | | DaveVoorhis wrote: | | Jimmyd wrote: | | How do I test for bad valves. I do have a compression tester. I thought I had a problem with a suzuki I owned a few years ago and bought a compression tester. Would a burnt valve be indicated by bad compression in that cylinder. |
Check the compression on all cylinders. The specific value(s) doesn't matter as much as reasonable consistency across all cylinders. A cylinder with poor compression will show up significantly lower than the rest. Then squirt some motor oil into all cylinders and check again. If you've got worn rings, the compression will increase. If you've got a burned valve (or a broken ring), it won't increase. |
Did the compression test.
Very consistent from cylinder to cylinder. About 230 in each cylinder.
Based on everything I have heard about the life of these engines, I did not expect to find a problem with compression since this bike has under 50K on the odometer. I was starting to think maybe someone changed the Odometer, and possibly the bike had a lot more miles the 47K, but this bike was in excellent shspe for the year. Looks all original but must have been painted at some point as the K1100 emblem and the RS emblem are missing off the the tail section and windshield. Unless BMW did not put these on the 1994 bikes.
Since the compression is so consistent should I be concerned about a valve adjustment?
I just ordered and will pick and install some Ngk iridium plugs. I have to guess the plugs are not the issue but I will rule this out tomorrow.
Now that sends me in the direction of either the HES or the Coils.
There was an immediate noticeable difference when I re-gaped (decreased) the plugs this morning. To me that points in the direction of the coils more then the HES ....... O please be the coils at least used coils are cheaper then an HES.
Any suggestions??? |
I replaced the plugs.... TWICE yesterday. I bought the NGK Iridium plugs and broke one. So I had to go back and by the normal NGK plugs because no one had the iridiums in stock.
So
New plugs, plug wires, new fuel fliter, new internal fuel lines, cleaned air filter, had injectors cleaned, tested TPS, compression tested all cylinders very consistent.
Now I have what seems like the opposite problem. During the test ride after the new plugs seems like the bike responds better as long as your pushing hard on the throttle. As soon as you let off it seems to run a little rough. It still does not pull nice an smoothly from zero to what ever like it use to but it is better. I use to get a stuplme around 5K but it pulled smoothly up to 5K.
It was 102 F yesterday so if the HES was a problem it surley would have been acting up yesterday.
I'm thinking readjust the TPS and possibly replace the 02 sensor. Since I already have an 02 sensor that is the next logical choice. I may just run another tank of seafoam before I try the 02 sensor.
Any suggestions?
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1994 K 1100 RS |
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Mystic Red
Flying Brick Rider
Joined: 28 Mar 2005
Posts: 2330
Location: Twin Lakes Idaho
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| Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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What did your plugs look like when you pulled them? Were they all a nice light gray or tan color?
Have you checked for leaks on the intake?
I see you are Motobrick member also but have you read this?
I leaned in all the directions you have and it turned out to be an air leak and a bad spark plug wire. Just sayin that you might have corrected one problem and have a totally unrelated problem such as a air leak also.
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Scott Hespelt, '94 K11LT
K11 OG #466 |
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Jimmyd
Big Brick Rider
Joined: 13 May 2011
Posts: 61
Location: CT/MA Border
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| Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 11:09 pm Post subject: Air |
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| Mystic Red wrote: | What did your plugs look like when you pulled them? Were they all a nice light gray or tan color?
Have you checked for leaks on the intake?
I see you are Motobrick member also but have you read this?
I leaned in all the directions you have and it turned out to be an air leak and a bad spark plug wire. Just sayin that you might have corrected one problem and have a totally unrelated problem such as a air leak also. |
Air leak is a possibility. I have to look close at the Throttle bodies. I did have what looked like one bad spak plug wire (lots of residue inside cap).
When I first got the bike last year I pulled the plugs when I started to notice a stumble at 5K. Plug number 4 looked really sooty. The plug wire for cylinder #2 had all residue in it, but the bike was only stumbling around 5K and pulled smoothly beyond 5K and upwards of 80 MPH. The 5K stumbling and post 80 MPH got progressively worse, so I replaced the plugs and all was better for a while. Then the stumbling got progressively worse until I almost did not want to ride the bike.
This week I confirmed the TPS was good, installed new plugs and plug wires and installed the newly cleaned Fuel injectors. I did have to take the throttle bodies off and could possibly have not fit them back on correctly. The TBodies look fine, but do not look seated as far down as they use to so I have to loosen the clamps and try to push them down a bit.
I am about to go throw the cover on the bike and call it a day, though I like to ride on hot summer nights.
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1994 K 1100 RS |
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Scott_Anderson
Site Admin
Joined: 05 Sep 2006
Posts: 3122
Location: Central Iowa, USA
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 12:57 am Post subject: |
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As you are looking for your air leak, check real good at the injector intakes. The part that the injector actually is inserted into that is bolted to the head.
They only seal with an o-ring. I had a couple of them on my '95 leaking just from age as they were cracked and brittle.
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Ride safe.
1995 K1100LT 0302044
2017 FLHTK Ultra Limited
Garmin StreetPilot 2820
Garmin Zumo 550
Garmin Zumo XT
"One who does not ask questions is ashamed to learn" Danish proverb
1997 K1100LT 0302488(R.I.P.)
1997 R1100RT ZC62149(sold) |
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Jimmyd
Big Brick Rider
Joined: 13 May 2011
Posts: 61
Location: CT/MA Border
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 3:14 am Post subject: |
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| Scott_Anderson wrote: | As you are looking for your air leak, check real good at the injector intakes. The part that the injector actually is inserted into that is bolted to the head.
They only seal with an o-ring. I had a couple of them on my '95 leaking just from age as they were cracked and brittle. |
I though about those as a source of the issue. I reseated the TB onto the injector intakes. I did not go so far as to take them out when I had the fuel rail off. I gave some definite thought to it because I had an intake leak on a 93 katana I owned. The idle would not idle below something like 3K. When I removed the intake boots you couldn't even tell there were orings behind them, they were worn flat and looked like part of the boot. They were the problem and the reason I could not do the carb balance.
I'll fire the biek up tomorrow. If everything is not signifcantly better, I will order the orings. I'll have to take a couple days to get my mind ready to pul all that stuff off again  .
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1994 K 1100 RS |
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Jimmyd
Big Brick Rider
Joined: 13 May 2011
Posts: 61
Location: CT/MA Border
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 3:17 am Post subject: |
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| Scott_Anderson wrote: | As you are looking for your air leak, check real good at the injector intakes. The part that the injector actually is inserted into that is bolted to the head.
They only seal with an o-ring. I had a couple of them on my '95 leaking just from age as they were cracked and brittle. |
Are you saying the o-rings were shot (the issue) or the injector intakes were cracked.
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Scott_Anderson
Site Admin
Joined: 05 Sep 2006
Posts: 3122
Location: Central Iowa, USA
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 8:50 am Post subject: |
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The o-rings were showing signs of age.
I was replacing all of the rubber bits on the bike, o-rings, fuel lines, the rubber boots between the throttle bodies and the injector "manifolds", vac hoses, injector o-rings, the works.
I started with the fuel lines, as they were showing signs of weather checking and cracking so I figured that all the rubber bits were going to be the same age and decided to replace them all.
I had already replaced the brake lines earlier in the year.
The only thing I didn't do was send the injectors out for cleaning. 
I'll probably do that this winter, for both bikes.
_________________
Ride safe.
1995 K1100LT 0302044
2017 FLHTK Ultra Limited
Garmin StreetPilot 2820
Garmin Zumo 550
Garmin Zumo XT
"One who does not ask questions is ashamed to learn" Danish proverb
1997 K1100LT 0302488(R.I.P.)
1997 R1100RT ZC62149(sold) |
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Mystic Red
Flying Brick Rider
Joined: 28 Mar 2005
Posts: 2330
Location: Twin Lakes Idaho
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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Although not the source of my air leak the o-rings looked like shapeless shriveled up rubber bands. No way they filled up the groove in the bottom of the throttle bodies. Try the propane trick. More safe than starter fluid and more precise.
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Scott Hespelt, '94 K11LT
K11 OG #466 |
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Flying Duck
PsyKotic Waterfowl
Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Posts: 10102
Location: Bumf***, WA
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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You'll want to replace more than the O-rings. It's the rubber boots themselves that crack and the O-rings usually aren't the issue (though it makes sense to replace them when you're doing this.)
I recently replaced everything between the TBs and head on my K1 and also had the fuel injectors cleaned/reconditioned by www.mrinjector.com. The bike runs like a top now - very smooth - like new.
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93 LT (x2)
94 RS
86-97 K75F(K75/100/1100 Frankenbrick)
86 K75C w/paralever, hi perf cams,TURBO!
91 & 92 K75Ss
91 K1
86 custom K100
14 WR250R
IBA #17739 (SS1K, BBG, 50CC)
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Jimmyd
Big Brick Rider
Joined: 13 May 2011
Posts: 61
Location: CT/MA Border
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Flying Duck wrote: | You'll want to replace more than the O-rings. It's the rubber boots themselves that crack and the O-rings usually aren't the issue (though it makes sense to replace them when you're doing this.)
I recently replaced everything between the TBs and head on my K1 and also had the fuel injectors cleaned/reconditioned by www.mrinjector.com. The bike runs like a top now - very smooth - like new. |
The rubber boots on my bike look pretty good. Of course looks can be deceiving and they could be the entire problem from the begining.
I never have sprayed starter fluid on them to see if there are any leaks. I will try that before I purchase either a set of coils or HES.
I can't tell if these are originals but if they are its probably a good idea to replace them.
I saw your post with the K1 pics. I think you said you have owned a K1 and K1100. What's the performance of the K1 like compared to the K1100. I always thought the K1 was a cool verison of Y K bikes.
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1994 K 1100 RS |
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Flying Duck
PsyKotic Waterfowl
Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Posts: 10102
Location: Bumf***, WA
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Now I have what seems like the opposite problem. During the test ride after the new plugs seems like the bike responds better as long as your pushing hard on the throttle. As soon as you let off it seems to run a little rough. It still does not pull nice an smoothly from zero to what ever like it use to but it is better. I use to get a stuplme around 5K but it pulled smoothly up to 5K. |
This could be the symptom of an air leak. When you're pulling hard the vacuum goes up - which can temporarily "seal" air leaks. Then when you let off the vacuum decreases and the air leak occurs again.
_________________
93 LT (x2)
94 RS
86-97 K75F(K75/100/1100 Frankenbrick)
86 K75C w/paralever, hi perf cams,TURBO!
91 & 92 K75Ss
91 K1
86 custom K100
14 WR250R
IBA #17739 (SS1K, BBG, 50CC)
Buy parts HERE |
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Flying Duck
PsyKotic Waterfowl
Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Posts: 10102
Location: Bumf***, WA
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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[img]http://www.bmbikes.co.uk/photos/specphotos/k1%20&%20krs%2016v%20power%20chart.jpg[/img]
The K1 is lighter too - especially since you can't put hard cases on it.
The K1 rides like is has a slightly longer wheel base but it doesn't so I think that may be due to slightly different front end geometry.
_________________
93 LT (x2)
94 RS
86-97 K75F(K75/100/1100 Frankenbrick)
86 K75C w/paralever, hi perf cams,TURBO!
91 & 92 K75Ss
91 K1
86 custom K100
14 WR250R
IBA #17739 (SS1K, BBG, 50CC)
Buy parts HERE |
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Jimmyd
Big Brick Rider
Joined: 13 May 2011
Posts: 61
Location: CT/MA Border
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Flying Duck wrote: | [img]http://www.bmbikes.co.uk/photos/specphotos/k1%20&%20krs%2016v%20power%20chart.jpg[/img]
The K1 is lighter too - especially since you can't put hard cases on it.
The K1 rides like is has a slightly longer wheel base but it doesn't so I think that may be due to slightly different front end geometry. |
Is this the power output graph for K1 and K1100.
Which graph is which?
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1994 K 1100 RS |
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Inge K.
Flying Brick Rider
Joined: 30 Apr 2011
Posts: 458
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Uppermost curve power (kW), other torque (Nm), K1100. |
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Jimmyd
Big Brick Rider
Joined: 13 May 2011
Posts: 61
Location: CT/MA Border
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| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:34 am Post subject: Its The Little Things |
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| Flying Duck wrote: | | Quote: | | Now I have what seems like the opposite problem. During the test ride after the new plugs seems like the bike responds better as long as your pushing hard on the throttle. As soon as you let off it seems to run a little rough. It still does not pull nice an smoothly from zero to what ever like it use to but it is better. I use to get a stuplme around 5K but it pulled smoothly up to 5K. |
This could be the symptom of an air leak. When you're pulling hard the vacuum goes up - which can temporarily "seal" air leaks. Then when you let off the vacuum decreases and the air leak occurs again. |
Ok I know for sure I had a problem 2 weeks ago.
Since getting the injectors back last week, installing them, and replacing plugs and wires, I was still having a problem.
I dsicovered that I needed to reseat the throttle bodies and did so Monday. Bike ran better but still obviously hand a problem stumbling and stuttering and running poorly especially when not heavy on the throttle.
I was about to give up.
Went outside today checked again to make sure the Throttle Bodies were not a source of an air leak.... and there it was..... The connector for Injector #1 was not fully connected. make the connect......................... I feel liek I have reached heaven. Took a 2 hour ride with lost of spirited throttle work 
I think I'm in love again
I;ll be completing the TB sync this week and am now ready for the Route 1 ride to Maine.
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