K11 Owners Group

nickmakwell · Brick Rider Joined: 12 Aug 2006 Posts: 30

HI folks,

I've tried to start my K1100R project bike up - I'm just about to re-register it as my commuter.

Electrics are fine, the dash lights up all good, the starter motor cranks over very nicely, as does the fuel pump on start up.

Now, I changed the fuel filter before I did anything else to the bike - i.e I removed the ABS system...plus all other oils/etc

But....she won't start...

I turn the key, the fuel pump whirrs nicely, give some choke, hit the starter - and only the starter goes, with some very minor coughing.

IF i give a little more throttle, I get it going, but only for 20 seconds or so, and it sounds like its running on three cylinders....and then bleh, nothing.

Little bit of smoke, but that's been happening always.

Have I stuffed something up in re-wiring? When I say re-wiring, I only removed the ABS stuff, never touched anything else..

Would it be a fuelling problem? That's what I'm leaning to - I put some new fuel in, but didn't make a difference...but the tank was off the bike for a little while (could have got some moisture in there??)

Or something else?

Any help would be appreciated.

chopper_harris · Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 7:16 am Post subject:

Have you checked that there is a strong fuel supply to the injector header rail ?
Drop the spark plugs. Disconnect the supply hose pipe clip and catch the fuel in a clean glass receptacle whilst you crank the engine.

I don't have the precise figure, but you should find something like 50-100 ml for a 10 second crank.

Next check each injector nozzle - you have to drop the header rail and inectors from the head - they should pull put easily.
Reassemble the injectors in the rail (I would rotate it 120' axially, so the injectors point at the floor) and each should give a nice conical spray pattern when cranking.

Plug leads - with an ohm meter, check that each lead has a resistance of 5,000-6,000 ohm end-end.

Did you fit new spark plugs - with a known good plug grounded on a clean, bright part of the frame, test each coil output for a healthy spark
(Use stout gloves and usual precautions Wink

)
_________________
C1 200 (2001)
R100 RS (1990)
NSU Quickly N (1964)
Honda 400/4 F1 (1977)
MotoGuzzi 1000C (1978)
Suzuki TL 1000 R (1999)
Kawasaki KLV1000 (2005)
K12R Sport (2007) - Wifeys

nickmakwell · Brick Rider Joined: 12 Aug 2006 Posts: 30

I shall give all that a go first thing in the morning - i believe you may have it there...

many thanks!

K11Martin · Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 5:01 am Post subject:

chopper_harris · Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 12:24 pm Post subject:

yep, that was one of the points I raised earlier in the thread Wink

Martin, now that we have your attention, are you UK based ? Why not go and post some basic details about yourself under the 'Show Yourself' thread in 'Meetings'

Rgds

Chopper
_________________
C1 200 (2001)
R100 RS (1990)
NSU Quickly N (1964)
Honda 400/4 F1 (1977)
MotoGuzzi 1000C (1978)
Suzuki TL 1000 R (1999)
Kawasaki KLV1000 (2005)
K12R Sport (2007) - Wifeys

K11Martin · Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 2:09 pm Post subject:

WidgetMan · Joined: 23 Oct 2008 Posts: 11 Location: Derby, UK

Hi Everyone!!

This is my first post on this, and any, forum so here goes ....

I'd like to know whether NickMakwell ever got to the bottom of his 'Hard Starting' troubles. My '93 K1100LT is showing the same symptoms and I was wondering if Chopper's advice worked in this case?
_________________
'93 K1100LT (tatty and ex-police - the bike, not me!!.)
K - 75,000 miles, me - 4000 miles.

Mystic Red · Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2009 7:38 pm Post subject:

Hi Widget, and welcome. Chopper had some great ideas there but I would start with the gas, specifically water in the gas. Remove tank and dump it out, refill with new gas and add some fuel dryer (alcohol). If that doesn't work run through Chopper's ideas.
P.S. Don't forget the new fuel filter!
_________________
Scott Hespelt, '94 K11LT
K11 OG #466

Tim (Midland Section) · Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2009 8:11 pm Post subject: Re: Still Hard Starting?

Mystic Red · Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2009 8:48 pm Post subject:

By the way, what's "tatty?" Run down, beat up?
_________________
Scott Hespelt, '94 K11LT
K11 OG #466

Jim · Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 12:44 am Post subject:

yes... Kind of like ratty - but with a t.
_________________
Jim
1997 K1100LTSE 94,000 - still has gremlins!
1995 R100RT Classic 16,650 crashed - repaired!
1992 K75RTP 46,000

"We shall not all die, but we shall all be changed."

endoman100 · Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 8:13 am Post subject:

On most any type of four stroke engine you need three things to make it run.
1. Compression.
2. spark.
3. fuel

Did it run good before you took the abs off?
and whats the milage on the bike?
I hope the cpu/brain or what ever it;s called is ok

If you have good compression and,good spark and, good fuel it should run.

If the compression is bad, then it's your rings or Timing chain
If it's spark, might be the cpu or what chopper_harris and K11Martin said.
If it's fuel, chopper_harris and K11Martin gave you great Ideas to try
If it runs ruff then you might have to check the codes.

I just know the basics but the rest of guys and gals will be more helpfull
good luck
_________________
In the words of the stones
Time Is On My Side
Yes It Is
1993 K1100RS

Flying Duck · Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 8:32 am Post subject:

Mystic Red · Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 12:16 pm Post subject:

WidgetMan · Joined: 23 Oct 2008 Posts: 11 Location: Derby, UK

Firstly, a little more detail - see my entry on the Brits intro tread for a little more background on my lack of experience with these bike things.

When I got the bike it was working on 3 cylinders (got through its MOT like this!?). Put new plugs in and she ran on 4. But 15 to 20 mins out on most journeys and she would drop at least 1 pot. Thought this could be due to overheating and this was 'confirmed' when she blew the top off the water expansion tank 1/2 a mile from work. A new thermostat and she was running fine on 4 pots again. Worked well for a couple of weeks and then the 4 to 3 pot thing started up again, this time after an hour's test ride. Got her home, just, and put her up on the bench (I use a block and tackle to lift the bike 30" off the floor so I don't break my back as I work on her). First time on the bench she ran on two pots, then subsequently she coughed on 1 pot and then no life at all!!

She's had a new coil, plug leads and yet another set of plugs. All plugs tested to have a healthy spark. Then I hoovered out 1/2 a ton of brick dust, chalk and stones from the plenum chamber and replaced the air filter. One red herring was a broken trigger wire plug that connects into the bottom of the 1-4 coil (whilst she's on the bench I've jury rigged a fix before I go to a breakers and find a replacement plug). I've charged all the injectors and dribbled wd40 through each of them. I've also spent a happy couple of hours cleaning connectors under the tank. All to no avail. I have spark, air but no ignition.

So, I've now come to the advice from this forum (many thanks to all who contributed). I started by checking the timing mark scratched on the hall effect baseplate. This lined up and hadn't slipped. I then changed the fuel filter - it probably needed changing anyway. I then used a pair of mole grips to apply some pressure to the fuel return pipe (in case the pressure regulator was playing up) which had no noticable effect. Still no coughing.

I then took off the fuel feed pipe and checked for a healthy volume being pumped - this was fine. Then I pulled the fuel rail, rotated it so the return stub pipe pointed down and the injectors pointed outwards and reconnected the trigger connectors. I slipped a bucket under the whole lot and powered up. Turning the engine over not one of the injectors fired! Not a click or even a drip.

The confusing part of this is that when I've pulled plugs after turning the bike over they come out damp, implying that the injectors are firing! So now I'm chasing the wiring back to try to find out where the feeds from the 'Brain' all join up and where the returns all connect up as well.

So that's where we are today. Any more ideas all very welcome. I'll keep you posted as I progress.

By the way, the tatty bike is a '93 K1100LT with 70k miles on it.

All the best to you, and thanks again for the help so far.
_________________
'93 K1100LT (tatty and ex-police - the bike, not me!!.)
K - 75,000 miles, me - 4000 miles.

Stoked Steve · Posted: Sat Mar 28, 2009 7:36 pm Post subject:

This may or may not help, but it doesn't cost much to find out.

A few years back my 93 was running well, but would occasionally cut out like it was running on less than four cylinders. After much fiddling with all of the items you mentioned above, fellow K11OG'er Mick suggested checking something called an ignition amplifier module (I think). Apparently it's one of the carryover items only found on the '93 K1100's from the K100's. I ordered a new one (was less than $30 US) and when I went to replace it I discovered the connection to it was not "clicked" in. It almost fell out in my hands.

So, I cleaned it up and re-connected it, making sure it "clicked" into place. Viola, bike has run like a top ever since. I still have the replacement module in a drawer, didn't need it. It made sense that when this thing lost the connection, the spark plugs wouldn't fire correctly, thus causing my intermittant cutting out.

It is located down on the left side, right behind where your left ankle would be while riding, just behind the coils.

Check the connection and if that is fine, maybe replacing the module might cure it.

FYI, Transpo Ignition Module BM 325
_________________
Steve
Virginia Beach, VA
93 K1100RS Mystic Red SOLD
12 Suzuki DL650A VStrom

WidgetMan · Joined: 23 Oct 2008 Posts: 11 Location: Derby, UK

Thanks for the quick responce Steve.

A few weeks ago I checked and cleaned the Output Amp connector, and reseated it onto the battery case with fresh thermal grease, the same as I use in my computer cpu heat sink. Now I did wonder if this should be an electrical rather than themal conductor but the bike has run with all 4 pots since then. I also slightly twisted the pins in the connector to ensure a tighter grip and better connection.

The issue at the moment seems to be that the injectors are not opening.

Tim.
_________________
'93 K1100LT (tatty and ex-police - the bike, not me!!.)
K - 75,000 miles, me - 4000 miles.

Scott_Anderson · Posted: Sat Mar 28, 2009 9:38 pm Post subject:

If you have the fuel rail disconnected/removed you could have the injectors tested and cleaned, probably at an auto repair shop or service center.
One more variable to remove from the equasion.
_________________
Ride safe.

1995 K1100LT 0302044
2017 FLHTK Ultra Limited
Garmin StreetPilot 2820
Garmin Zumo 550
Garmin Zumo XT
"One who does not ask questions is ashamed to learn" Danish proverb
1997 K1100LT 0302488(R.I.P.)
1997 R1100RT ZC62149(sold)

WidgetMan · Joined: 23 Oct 2008 Posts: 11 Location: Derby, UK

Now I know I'm new to all this biking lark, this is my first propper bike, but I have to say that I've never had so much help from people from all over - even offers to come and help with the spanners. So the next episode goes like this ...

The fuel rail is off and none of the injectors are working. As I'm a trainee teacher (see intro notes on other thread) time with the bike is patchy but it does mean I, and the army of helpers, have thinking time. In the week a good friend rang to suggest having a look at the fuel pump relay. So this morning I leapt out of bed and swapped the fan and pump relays over and behold 3 out of 4 injectors fire. Spookily I swapped the relay back and they still fire - it must have frozen and pulling it out had freed the reed. I'll be ordering a replacement (and a spare I think) today. However, pot 1's trigger wire is not firing no matter what injector I connect it to so now I have to track the continuity back to find out where it may be broken. This will have to be later as the Boss is demanding chores to be done - ho hum.

This is a cracking case of faults being hidden by layers of other faults and is, I suppose, the price of trying to put a cheap ebay bike back on the road, but then from what I read from you lot it should be worth the grief, eventually.

More to follow.
_________________
'93 K1100LT (tatty and ex-police - the bike, not me!!.)
K - 75,000 miles, me - 4000 miles.

WidgetMan · Joined: 23 Oct 2008 Posts: 11 Location: Derby, UK

So, where were we - ah yes....

My good friend and I grovelled amongst the knitting that is the wiring for the injectors, coils etc and baulked at pulling the lot to see where it all connected up. Continuity showed it was that wire from the Motronics to the injector that had failed but the Motronic only received 1 wire from the 4 injectors so where do they all join up? (As an aside the other wire from each injector goes to the fuel pump relay, but only 2 wires arive there so there must be some splicing going on there as well somewhere but no clue yet where that is).

So, began at the most logical point, which for us is the teapot. Nothing like a warm brew to get the juices flowing. Back at the bike we started by peeling back the covering for the injector connector and bingo, a broken wire!! Someone was smiling on us. The break was 1/8 inch from the top of the connector so we cut back the other end and spliced in a 1 inch length of multistrand copper automotive wire, wrapped it well in insulation tape, replaced the cover, plugged it into an injector and charged up the rail. Bingo, the injector triggered.

So now it is a small matter of reassembling the rail and trying to get the bike to fire up. And that will be the next installment.

I've learnt quite a bit from this little challenge that I may write up as a few notes in case it might help another newbie. But that is another day.
_________________
'93 K1100LT (tatty and ex-police - the bike, not me!!.)
K - 75,000 miles, me - 4000 miles.