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K1100RS Engine Dies, Stalls, Quits, Intermitten Problem
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biblek



Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Posts: 11

PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 8:45 am    Post subject: K1100RS Engine Dies, Stalls, Quits, Intermitten Problem Reply with quote

Hello All,
I have a 1996 K1100RS. Stock. 42,000 miles. Just returned (3 weeks ago)from a 6,000 mile trip with no problems on this bike.
Two weeks ago I was riding the bike and it started cutting out - like water in the gas - then died completely. I was traveling about 55 MPH so I just left the clutch engaged and after about 30 seconds the bike picked back up and I rode another 50 miles with no problem. Then the bike did the same thing again except I was slowing down for a stop sign. The bike completely quit. I pulled over and it would not restart during the first 5 minutes. I let the bike sit about 10 minutes and it started like nothing had ever been wrong. The bike has done this 3 more times. The last time it died completely again and I was on the side of the road another 10 minutes before it would re-start. When it is on the side of the road and will not start, the fuel pump sounds like it is working properly - it pumps up to pressure and then stops. (I THINK this is the fuel pump - please correct me if that is wrong).
I cannot tell if it is a fuel or firing problem.
I have checked the sidestand switch and kill switch on the handlebar.
I need some help on where I go from here. I am afraid to ride the bike.
Is there fault codes that can be retreived that might help?
Any feedback will be greatly appreciated.

Thank you,
Kenan Bible
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Flying Duck
PsyKotic Waterfowl


Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Posts: 9892
Location: Bumf***, WA

PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

(Moved by me to Tech where people will see it.)

If it's quitting suddenly,it might be a failing Hall Effect Sensor (timing sensor.)

When Hall Effect Sensors start to go they usually only fail once the engine is hot. There's a couple of ways to diagnose this.

1) Remove the small timing cover. Start the bike and heat up the HES with a heat gun to see if that induces shutdown.

2) Try pouring cold water on the small timing plate cover when it quits suddenly to see if that helps restart the bike.

And it never hurts to replace the fuel filter if that hasn't been done recently.
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86-97 K75F(K75/100/1100 Frankenbrick)
86 K75C w/paralever, hi perf cams,TURBO!
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Carl
Mad Brick Rider


Joined: 04 Apr 2003
Posts: 89
Location: Texas

PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:08 am    Post subject: Bike dies suddenly Reply with quote

Kenan, or it could be the ignition switch. I had the same problems and it was the bottom part of the ignition switch going bad. Easy to diagnose, start the bike and wiggle the wiring going to the bottom of the ignition switch to see it it dies. Also easy to replace, 1 setscrew and a few cable ties. Since you are only changing out the bottom part of the ignition switch, the same keys still fit. Good luck.
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Moondog
Flying Brick Rider


Joined: 09 Oct 2004
Posts: 670
Location: Richmond Hill, Georgia

PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I concur both possibilities. just for poops and grins check to make sure the gas cap is venting properly. Does the gas tank make a rush when you open the filler cover? It is a remote possibility. Also get the bike running and find the side stand switch and check to make sure it is clean and not gunked up. Wiggle the switch while the bike is running to see if it cuts out. I would head for the HES. They are a frequent problem on the HOT K-bikes.
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2004 R1150RS
1996 K1100RS (moved on to new home)
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Flying Duck
PsyKotic Waterfowl


Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Posts: 9892
Location: Bumf***, WA

PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

He said that he'd checked the sidestand switch but it wouldn't hurt to double check it.

IF it does turn out to be the sidestnd switch it's often because it doen't get depressed all of the way. The quick and easy fix I found for this is putting a piece of hose over the tang the depresses the switch. That makes it thicker and it ensures the switch gets closed.
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93 LT (x2)
94 RS
86-97 K75F(K75/100/1100 Frankenbrick)
86 K75C w/paralever, hi perf cams,TURBO!
91 & 92 K75Ss
91 K1
86 custom K100
14 WR250R
IBA #17739 (SS1K, BBG, 50CC)
Buy parts HERE


Last edited by Flying Duck on Tue Aug 19, 2008 11:17 am; edited 1 time in total
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Moondog
Flying Brick Rider


Joined: 09 Oct 2004
Posts: 670
Location: Richmond Hill, Georgia

PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Must have missed that. guess I better learn to read Smile Sounds like a heat issue anyway.
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"Badges? We don't need no stinking badges"!

I like the social aspect of riding. Rally's, socializing, drinking beer, fartin' and carrying on. Smile

2004 R1150RS
1996 K1100RS (moved on to new home)
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biblek



Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Posts: 11

PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks to all for the input.
I am going to check connectors, ignition, switches, and the HES as soon as I have time. I will update with my findings. I really appreciate the input.

Kenan
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Josh Kaufman



Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a similar problem on my 94 K1100 RS that was solved by pulling and reseating fuse 5.
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lrome48
Flying Brick Rider


Joined: 30 Jan 2006
Posts: 364
Location: Northridge, SFV,Southern California

PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kenan,

Check the TPS on the end of the injector linkage. The connector will loosen and over time moisture and dirt will get in. I had the same issue, and took the connector off the TPS, cleaned the contacts on the switch side and the plug side and reseated it after lubing it with dielectric grease. That was over 10K miles ago, it's been perfect since.
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K75
97 K1100 LT Specialk under construction
87 SpecialK75 Carols done!
2004 K12 Special the 'Beast' delivered
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kengibson
Brick Rider


Joined: 22 Aug 2008
Posts: 30
Location: Colorado, Boulder area

PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm having the same problem with my '95 RS and have ruled out everything but the HES.

The Clymer's manual has a bunch of warnings against attempting to change the HES (easy to damage, very expensive, etc.). On the other hand, the BMW repair manual makes it look pretty simple.

Is there anything to watch out for? Should I get a new cork gasket for the cover?

Thanks,
/Ken
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Moondog
Flying Brick Rider


Joined: 09 Oct 2004
Posts: 670
Location: Richmond Hill, Georgia

PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kengibson wrote:
I'm having the same problem with my '95 RS and have ruled out everything but the HES.

The Clymer's manual has a bunch of warnings against attempting to change the HES (easy to damage, very expensive, etc.). On the other hand, the BMW repair manual makes it look pretty simple.

Is there anything to watch out for? Should I get a new cork gasket for the cover?

Thanks,
/Ken

Just mark it well with something sharp so you can line it up exactly in the same position it was. I have had mine in and out numerous times. If there is any damage it is usually done before one removes it. Overheating, brittle wires, broken wires. There is not much you can do to it once it is out. there is a schematic floating around where you can ohm it out but the best bet is to heat it up with a heat gun to simulate a failure. There are some used ones around but brand new from BMW will run you $500 or more. The sensor's can be bought and changed out. Just mark everything well before you remove it. The gasket is judgement call. It is just a dust seal. There is no fluid in the HES.
_________________
"Badges? We don't need no stinking badges"!

I like the social aspect of riding. Rally's, socializing, drinking beer, fartin' and carrying on. Smile

2004 R1150RS
1996 K1100RS (moved on to new home)
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Flying Duck
PsyKotic Waterfowl


Joined: 27 Jan 2005
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Location: Bumf***, WA

PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HES removal and install is no big deal. If you center the notch on it by eye you'll be VERY close to perfect timing. Although it doesn't hurt to check it with a timing light.
_________________
93 LT (x2)
94 RS
86-97 K75F(K75/100/1100 Frankenbrick)
86 K75C w/paralever, hi perf cams,TURBO!
91 & 92 K75Ss
91 K1
86 custom K100
14 WR250R
IBA #17739 (SS1K, BBG, 50CC)
Buy parts HERE
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Moondog
Flying Brick Rider


Joined: 09 Oct 2004
Posts: 670
Location: Richmond Hill, Georgia

PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Flying Duck wrote:
HES removal and install is no big deal. If you center the notch on it by eye you'll be VERY close to perfect timing. Although it doesn't hurt to check it with a timing light.


I tried checking mine with a timing light once and I couldn't get a sharp image. It seemed to jump all over. The bike runs well so who knows. I know its a bear to get in there to see it. I had to use a mirror to see what was going on. The front wheel was in the way.
_________________
"Badges? We don't need no stinking badges"!

I like the social aspect of riding. Rally's, socializing, drinking beer, fartin' and carrying on. Smile

2004 R1150RS
1996 K1100RS (moved on to new home)
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Flying Duck
PsyKotic Waterfowl


Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Posts: 9892
Location: Bumf***, WA

PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Even on a lift it's hard to see. Get a miror to use use with the timing light if you don't want tp pull of the front wheel.
_________________
93 LT (x2)
94 RS
86-97 K75F(K75/100/1100 Frankenbrick)
86 K75C w/paralever, hi perf cams,TURBO!
91 & 92 K75Ss
91 K1
86 custom K100
14 WR250R
IBA #17739 (SS1K, BBG, 50CC)
Buy parts HERE
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biblek



Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Posts: 11

PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I started working on the bike.
I rode the bike and got it as hot as possible - fan coming on.
I put the bike on the center stand and left the hot motor running. I took the cover off of the Hall sensor and put 2 hair dryers blowing directly on the sensor. I heated the sensor this way for about 15 minutes. The sensor was HOT. Nothing happened. The bike ran great. Could the sensor STILL be defective?

Next I swaped the fuel pump relay with antoher relay.
I checked the ignition wiring as good as I could with the bike running.
I cleaned the connectors to the "Brain" with emory paper.
I switched fuse #5 with fuse #6.

Next I will check the TPS contacts and clean those.

I will ride the bike all I can in the coming days and see if I have the problem again.
I appreciate everyones help and please respond with any other ideas.

Thank you,
Kenan
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Moondog
Flying Brick Rider


Joined: 09 Oct 2004
Posts: 670
Location: Richmond Hill, Georgia

PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

biblek wrote:
I started working on the bike.
I rode the bike and got it as hot as possible - fan coming on.
I put the bike on the center stand and left the hot motor running. I took the cover off of the Hall sensor and put 2 hair dryers blowing directly on the sensor. I heated the sensor this way for about 15 minutes. The sensor was HOT. Nothing happened. The bike ran great. Could the sensor STILL be defective?

Next I swaped the fuel pump relay with antoher relay.
I checked the ignition wiring as good as I could with the bike running.
I cleaned the connectors to the "Brain" with emory paper.
I switched fuse #5 with fuse #6.

Next I will check the TPS contacts and clean those.

I will ride the bike all I can in the coming days and see if I have the problem again.
I appreciate everyones help and please respond with any other ideas.

Thank you,
Kenan

Warm the bike again and try wiggling the key in the ignition switch. Find the wiring on the switch and "fondel" the wiring. Do the wiring on the HES the same way. Next will be to remove the brain connector and clean the connections. Same action to the RH switch assembly off the handle bars the one with the kill switch on it. Find the connector for the side stand switch and check that connector. It sound like one of the following, HES, kill switch or side stand switch and all of their associated wiring. Trouble shooting an intermittant problem can be a bear so be patient.
_________________
"Badges? We don't need no stinking badges"!

I like the social aspect of riding. Rally's, socializing, drinking beer, fartin' and carrying on. Smile

2004 R1150RS
1996 K1100RS (moved on to new home)
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kengibson
Brick Rider


Joined: 22 Aug 2008
Posts: 30
Location: Colorado, Boulder area

PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gee, I want your HES Wink

My sudden death problem clearly correlates to a hot engine. Plus I've ruled out just about every other possible cause. I pulled the HES out over the weekend and there are no obvious bad wires or solder connections so it looks like the solid-state components in the sensors are breaking down when they get hot. Unfortunately, the local BMW dealer wants two weeks and $500 for a new one. Sad
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Moondog
Flying Brick Rider


Joined: 09 Oct 2004
Posts: 670
Location: Richmond Hill, Georgia

PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kengibson wrote:
Gee, I want your HES Wink

My sudden death problem clearly correlates to a hot engine. Plus I've ruled out just about every other possible cause. I pulled the HES out over the weekend and there are no obvious bad wires or solder connections so it looks like the solid-state components in the sensors are breaking down when they get hot. Unfortunately, the local BMW dealer wants two weeks and $500 for a new one. Sad


The HES can be a bear to trouble shoot. It might fail once and not fail for awhile. And by the way everyone, if you get a Motronic code failure for the HES ignor it at first. The motronic self tests the HES some how and a failure shows up. I went around with mine for three weeks. Kept getting the #2 sensor failure and there was nothing wrong with it. A rider in Germany told about the self test.
_________________
"Badges? We don't need no stinking badges"!

I like the social aspect of riding. Rally's, socializing, drinking beer, fartin' and carrying on. Smile

2004 R1150RS
1996 K1100RS (moved on to new home)
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tmarshall57
Mad Brick Rider


Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 98
Location: Tottington, Bury, Lancs, UK

PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The cost will be as you state from a BMW stealer however I believe this is a standard component produced by Honeywell which retails for a few $

I have seen threads on this subject - such as

http://www.bmwmoa.org/forum/showthread.php?t=8854&highlight=Hall+Sensor

and

http://advwisdom.hogranch.com/Wisdom/oilhead_hall_sensors.pdf


Which may help
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biblek



Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Posts: 11

PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

UPDATE
Just a note to give you the latest.
I replaced the fuel filter and took the kill switch apart and cleaned it.
Rode the bike about 30 miles and it quit again. Pulled over to the side of the road, turned the bike off and back on, the bike cranked right up. Ran perfect for the next 50 miles when I arrived back home.

The last things I did:
1. Cleaned and applied dielectric grease to the Brain connector, the TPS plug, and the 4 pin tank plug.
2. Ohmed the plug wires: #1 = 5.95K, #2 = 5.8K, #3 = 6.15K, #4 = 6.1K
3. I checked the fault codes
1223 - Hall Sensor
1133 - Hall Sensor
1122 - Temp out of range

I read on this forum that the Hall Sensor faults may not be reliable. The temp out of range was probably from my HAll Sensor test?
I have ridden the bike on 3 trips totaling 75 miles and the bike has ran perfect.
One other thing I have not done is clean the kickstand kill switch.(I have check it).

I am going to keep riding the bike somewhat close to home and see what develops. The cleaning & dielectric grease may be the fix but I doubt it - riding time will tell. Any other suggestions? What about the fault codes?

Thanks again to all of you for the help.
Kenan Bible
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