K11 Owners Group

merlin geikie · Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:13 am Post subject:

Yup we love our OILS Laughing

FD writes;

RAL88 · Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:10 am Post subject:

I just mix a teaspoon of moly with a teaspoon and a half of Wurth Sig 3000 and it sticks like glue.
_________________
Rich

"If it ain't broke, take it apart and make it work better"
*************
'96' K1100LT-SE
'97' R850GS-R

merlin geikie · Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:42 am Post subject:

Rich writes;

Jim · Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:38 am Post subject:

merlin geikie · Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:18 pm Post subject:

Jim generously replies;

[/quote]If they won't, I'm sure I could buy some from them and send it to you.

RAL88 · Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:44 pm Post subject:

If you are buying fresh I would skip the moly and go with the tungsten. I am going to do a full oil change on the bike next week and put the tungsten in the FD, Trans and Engine. Can you get the tungsten easier than the moly?
_________________
Rich

"If it ain't broke, take it apart and make it work better"
*************
'96' K1100LT-SE
'97' R850GS-R

RAL88 · Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:50 pm Post subject:

This place says they have a distributor for Australia and New Zealand.

http://reelschematic.com/isc/products/Pur%252dTungsten-Powder.html
_________________
Rich

"If it ain't broke, take it apart and make it work better"
*************
'96' K1100LT-SE
'97' R850GS-R

Ernie-NH · Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:43 pm Post subject:

Hi Rich...

IF you do ship it to him, be sure to include the MSDS and certified Export documents... otherwise it will be quarantined at POE. When I did my WS2 studies etc... I used 5%wt and 10%wt not volume. How are you apportioning yours ??

Best regards to you and sunny New Mexico !!..........// Ernie in NH
_________________
AMA,, American Deaf Bikers
Airhead Beemers Club
'11 G650gs
'95 K1100LT
'76 R100/7

RAL88 · Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:12 pm Post subject:

Hi Ernie,

I am apportioning mine by volume. This seems to be what other riders have done with the moly and what I did when I first used the moly. I don't see a problem doing it the same with the WS2. There is one person using 2 tablespoons per 4 ounces of oil in the rear drive. I think this is too much. Don't ask me why it's just my gut feeling that it is too much.
_________________
Rich

"If it ain't broke, take it apart and make it work better"
*************
'96' K1100LT-SE
'97' R850GS-R

merlin geikie · Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:39 pm Post subject:

Thing is, with the quality stuff measuring half a micron and some precision gear clearances of one or two microns, you don't need much.

It seems to work at a molecular level with molecules bonding at base to the metal and then other molecules sliding about on that first layer.

I guess what you would not want is a thick slurry or sludge that is so viscous that it cannot get to the fine crevices and niches where it is needed.

Ernie, you have the engineering background in this stuff, what do you reckon?

BTW the badfish moly site looks excellent... thanks for the link Rich Wink

Ernie-NH · Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 10:45 am Post subject:

Good morning Merlin...et al..

With respect to the use of ether Moly ( MoS2 ) or Tungsten ( WS2 ) as a lubricant additive, I dont know the "bearing strength" of either such as would be experienced at the contact point of two mating gear involutes.. however, I do know that at that point the Moly will agglomerate ( stick to itself in micro-clumps ) and then be flushed out by the motion of the fluids around it... The 'tungsten' however remains in discrete micro-spheres and does not agglomerate. This I have seen in the lab ! Rich mentioned that he believes these discrete "particles" will pass easily through a typical oil filter ( usually 10 micron positive mesh ) and remain in suspension. I believe this to be true as well, though I've never seen a sample that has been employed, removed, and allowed time to "settle". So I do not know if the WS2 will in fact settle or simply remain in suspension.

With respect to a "dynamic" elastomeric seal, such as Radial Shaft Seal ( engine output, trans input and output, valve stem seals, etc )... we require that the surface ( metal ) being sealed have a surface roughness no greater than 8 to 10 micro-inches RMS, ( ie: Ra=0.15 ave. microns ) and that it be 'plunge ground' such that the grind lines left by the centerless grinder be truly circular and have no lead ! With an Ra of 0.15 the "peak to valley" surface profile will then be appx 1 micron, meaning that any particle ( greater than half that value or 0.5 microns ) passing thru the miniscus along the sealing surface cannot be entrained within the topography of that surface, thus allowing a continual refresh of the fluid comprising the minscus. Note also that while there IS a surface profile to the elastomer which is normally the static partner in this relationship, there is no definitive surface topography to either promote or hinder the continual flushing of the miniscus fluid... ie: the seal and the shaft when in motion, develop a true hydrodynamic relationship which can be adjusted by either altering the dynamic surface ( normally the shaft ), the viscosity of the fluid being sealed, the shaft bearing load as imposed by the elastomer... or any combination of these variables. Failure to 'refresh' leads quickly to fluid degradation and rapid failure of the elastomer due to overheating.

Whereas Rich has selected an Impex product having a nominal particle size of 0.6 microns, it would seem to 'fit the bill' at least in as far as "Seals and dynamic Shafts" are concerned. However, I cannot address what might happen along the involute bearing surfaces of gears an/or sliding surfaces where an elastomer is not employed, BUT I can speculate that the superior lubricating properties and nano particulate size of this WS2 product will prove superior to Moly in all respects, and because superior lubricity means a reduction in friction and friction means heat, I am also convinced that the life span of every elastomeric component will likewise see dramatic improvement. From my perspective, It would be VERY interesting to see a young energetic doctoral student pick this up and comlplete our knowledge and understanding.

Rich's interest in WS2 and my previous experiences with it in the lab long ago when it was cost prohibitive, have kindled my interest anew in this material as a friction inhibitor.. Heck if I can get another 100k-miles out of my 'ol '76 R100/7 fliver I'm all for it !!

Have fun everyone and please ride safe !!......// Ernie in NH
_________________
AMA,, American Deaf Bikers
Airhead Beemers Club
'11 G650gs
'95 K1100LT
'76 R100/7

RAL88 · Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 7:39 pm Post subject:

Great info Ernie. I am going to do a complete lube change this weekend with the WS2. Now that I have some driving background in the NM heat I can get a feel if there is any difference with the WS2. I already have the Moly in the final drive and tranny so I don't know if I will see much difference there but with it going in the engine hopefully I will see some performance and heat improvement.

I will keep everyone updated.
_________________
Rich

"If it ain't broke, take it apart and make it work better"
*************
'96' K1100LT-SE
'97' R850GS-R

merlin geikie · Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 9:01 pm Post subject:

Excellent and lay-readable reply Ernie. Laughing

Thank you very much for such a concise picture, quite inspiring.

All the very best from downunder oz Wink

RAL88 · Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 7:17 pm Post subject:

So I put the WS2 in my final drive, tranny and engine oil yesterday morning and have done two, day long rides. Here is what I saw by the end of the two rides.

Now remember that that I already had Moly in my final drive and transmission.

The first I saw was that my highway mpg went from 51-52 mpg to 54-55 mpg. This is with driving at my usual 70 mph.

In town I went from about 49 mpg to 51-52 mpg.

It seemed to take longer for the fan to come on than usual with the stop and go in-town traffic but that was just from feel.

Shifting was definitely better with WS2 than with the moly in it. It was smoother and a lot less clunky.

Now remember this is not scientific by any means but I did notice a difference.
_________________
Rich

"If it ain't broke, take it apart and make it work better"
*************
'96' K1100LT-SE
'97' R850GS-R

RAL88 · Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 7:19 pm Post subject:

Also I forgot to mention that it was 98 degrees F out and I am at about 5000 feet.
_________________
Rich

"If it ain't broke, take it apart and make it work better"
*************
'96' K1100LT-SE
'97' R850GS-R

Sonu · Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 5:08 pm Post subject:

RAL88 · Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 7:24 pm Post subject:

I would stick with the same amounts and I do. Even as slippery as it is, with the pressure loads in the tranny and the final drive it will wear out over time and you want enough to keep it covered. I have also gone to leaving the fluids in twice as long as I used to between changes.
_________________
Rich

"If it ain't broke, take it apart and make it work better"
*************
'96' K1100LT-SE
'97' R850GS-R

carp · Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:44 am Post subject:

How many miles is twice as long as you used to?
_________________
93 K1100LT
07 Bandit 1250S

Sonu · Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 1:40 am Post subject: