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merlin geikie Flying Brick Rider
Joined: 26 Dec 2008 Posts: 343 Location: Lismore far north coast nsw australia
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Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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Thing is, with the quality stuff measuring half a micron and some precision gear clearances of one or two microns, you don't need much.
It seems to work at a molecular level with molecules bonding at base to the metal and then other molecules sliding about on that first layer.
I guess what you would not want is a thick slurry or sludge that is so viscous that it cannot get to the fine crevices and niches where it is needed.
Ernie, you have the engineering background in this stuff, what do you reckon?
BTW the badfish moly site looks excellent... thanks for the link Rich |
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Ernie-NH Flying Brick Rider
Joined: 14 Oct 2009 Posts: 982 Location: Bristol, New Hampshire
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Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 10:45 am Post subject: |
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Good morning Merlin...et al..
With respect to the use of ether Moly ( MoS2 ) or Tungsten ( WS2 ) as a lubricant additive, I dont know the "bearing strength" of either such as would be experienced at the contact point of two mating gear involutes.. however, I do know that at that point the Moly will agglomerate ( stick to itself in micro-clumps ) and then be flushed out by the motion of the fluids around it... The 'tungsten' however remains in discrete micro-spheres and does not agglomerate. This I have seen in the lab ! Rich mentioned that he believes these discrete "particles" will pass easily through a typical oil filter ( usually 10 micron positive mesh ) and remain in suspension. I believe this to be true as well, though I've never seen a sample that has been employed, removed, and allowed time to "settle". So I do not know if the WS2 will in fact settle or simply remain in suspension.
With respect to a "dynamic" elastomeric seal, such as Radial Shaft Seal ( engine output, trans input and output, valve stem seals, etc )... we require that the surface ( metal ) being sealed have a surface roughness no greater than 8 to 10 micro-inches RMS, ( ie: Ra=0.15 ave. microns ) and that it be 'plunge ground' such that the grind lines left by the centerless grinder be truly circular and have no lead ! With an Ra of 0.15 the "peak to valley" surface profile will then be appx 1 micron, meaning that any particle ( greater than half that value or 0.5 microns ) passing thru the miniscus along the sealing surface cannot be entrained within the topography of that surface, thus allowing a continual refresh of the fluid comprising the minscus. Note also that while there IS a surface profile to the elastomer which is normally the static partner in this relationship, there is no definitive surface topography to either promote or hinder the continual flushing of the miniscus fluid... ie: the seal and the shaft when in motion, develop a true hydrodynamic relationship which can be adjusted by either altering the dynamic surface ( normally the shaft ), the viscosity of the fluid being sealed, the shaft bearing load as imposed by the elastomer... or any combination of these variables. Failure to 'refresh' leads quickly to fluid degradation and rapid failure of the elastomer due to overheating.
Whereas Rich has selected an Impex product having a nominal particle size of 0.6 microns, it would seem to 'fit the bill' at least in as far as "Seals and dynamic Shafts" are concerned. However, I cannot address what might happen along the involute bearing surfaces of gears an/or sliding surfaces where an elastomer is not employed, BUT I can speculate that the superior lubricating properties and nano particulate size of this WS2 product will prove superior to Moly in all respects, and because superior lubricity means a reduction in friction and friction means heat, I am also convinced that the life span of every elastomeric component will likewise see dramatic improvement. From my perspective, It would be VERY interesting to see a young energetic doctoral student pick this up and comlplete our knowledge and understanding.
Rich's interest in WS2 and my previous experiences with it in the lab long ago when it was cost prohibitive, have kindled my interest anew in this material as a friction inhibitor.. Heck if I can get another 100k-miles out of my 'ol '76 R100/7 fliver I'm all for it !!
Have fun everyone and please ride safe !!......// Ernie in NH _________________ AMA,, American Deaf Bikers
Airhead Beemers Club
'11 G650gs
'95 K1100LT
'76 R100/7 |
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RAL88 Flying Brick Rider
Joined: 28 Apr 2004 Posts: 733 Location: New Mexico Land of Enchantment and 365 days of riding USA
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Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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Great info Ernie. I am going to do a complete lube change this weekend with the WS2. Now that I have some driving background in the NM heat I can get a feel if there is any difference with the WS2. I already have the Moly in the final drive and tranny so I don't know if I will see much difference there but with it going in the engine hopefully I will see some performance and heat improvement.
I will keep everyone updated. _________________ Rich
"If it ain't broke, take it apart and make it work better"
*************
'96' K1100LT-SE
'97' R850GS-R |
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merlin geikie Flying Brick Rider
Joined: 26 Dec 2008 Posts: 343 Location: Lismore far north coast nsw australia
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Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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Excellent and lay-readable reply Ernie.
Thank you very much for such a concise picture, quite inspiring.
All the very best from downunder oz |
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RAL88 Flying Brick Rider
Joined: 28 Apr 2004 Posts: 733 Location: New Mexico Land of Enchantment and 365 days of riding USA
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Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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So I put the WS2 in my final drive, tranny and engine oil yesterday morning and have done two, day long rides. Here is what I saw by the end of the two rides.
Now remember that that I already had Moly in my final drive and transmission.
The first I saw was that my highway mpg went from 51-52 mpg to 54-55 mpg. This is with driving at my usual 70 mph.
In town I went from about 49 mpg to 51-52 mpg.
It seemed to take longer for the fan to come on than usual with the stop and go in-town traffic but that was just from feel.
Shifting was definitely better with WS2 than with the moly in it. It was smoother and a lot less clunky.
Now remember this is not scientific by any means but I did notice a difference. _________________ Rich
"If it ain't broke, take it apart and make it work better"
*************
'96' K1100LT-SE
'97' R850GS-R |
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RAL88 Flying Brick Rider
Joined: 28 Apr 2004 Posts: 733 Location: New Mexico Land of Enchantment and 365 days of riding USA
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Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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Also I forgot to mention that it was 98 degrees F out and I am at about 5000 feet. _________________ Rich
"If it ain't broke, take it apart and make it work better"
*************
'96' K1100LT-SE
'97' R850GS-R |
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Sonu Flying Brick Rider
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 Posts: 395 Location: San Jose, CA
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Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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RAL88 wrote: |
For the FD use 3 teaspoons which gives you a 5% mix
For the Trans use 5.5 teaspoons gives you a 3% mix
It was recommended to mix it well with a blender before adding so I bought the cheapest blender I could find and used that to mix it with.
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Hi Rich,
Finally got around to doing this (I do my annual service during Christmas break).
Question:
At next service would you recommend sticking with the same concentrations or backing off a bit (since the MoS2 should have adhered to the metal surfaces by then).
Regards,
Sanjiv
P.S. I know you've since moved on to WS2 but I have a box of MoS2 to work through _________________ 1997 K1100LT "Ziggy" _GarminGPS_Corbin saddle_K Guards _Hyperlights_Fog lights_Eastern Beaver Relays_Cee Bailey_4"speakers_Michelin PR4's_MoS2_Spiegler lines_TPMS_VDO
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RAL88 Flying Brick Rider
Joined: 28 Apr 2004 Posts: 733 Location: New Mexico Land of Enchantment and 365 days of riding USA
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Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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I would stick with the same amounts and I do. Even as slippery as it is, with the pressure loads in the tranny and the final drive it will wear out over time and you want enough to keep it covered. I have also gone to leaving the fluids in twice as long as I used to between changes. _________________ Rich
"If it ain't broke, take it apart and make it work better"
*************
'96' K1100LT-SE
'97' R850GS-R |
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carp Flying Brick Rider
Joined: 09 Jan 2009 Posts: 159 Location: Minnesota
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Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:44 am Post subject: |
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How many miles is twice as long as you used to? _________________ 93 K1100LT
07 Bandit 1250S |
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Sonu Flying Brick Rider
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 Posts: 395 Location: San Jose, CA
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Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 1:40 am Post subject: |
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RAL88 wrote: | I would stick with the same amounts and I do. I have also gone to leaving the fluids in twice as long as I used to between changes. |
Thanks Rich!
RAL88 wrote: | I have also gone to leaving the fluids in twice as long as I used to between changes. |
Ya know I was toying with the same idea in my head so I'm glad that you've confirmed it. Every other year will work for me (its only ~15K miles in my case).
Sanjiv _________________ 1997 K1100LT "Ziggy" _GarminGPS_Corbin saddle_K Guards _Hyperlights_Fog lights_Eastern Beaver Relays_Cee Bailey_4"speakers_Michelin PR4's_MoS2_Spiegler lines_TPMS_VDO
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RAL88 Flying Brick Rider
Joined: 28 Apr 2004 Posts: 733 Location: New Mexico Land of Enchantment and 365 days of riding USA
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Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 10:02 pm Post subject: |
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carp wrote: | How many miles is twice as long as you used to? |
For my final drive and transmission I would change it about every 5000 miles so now I will look at going 8-10K depending on how I think its running. I just put the WS2 in the engine oil this spring and I am not sure yet when I am going to change that. _________________ Rich
"If it ain't broke, take it apart and make it work better"
*************
'96' K1100LT-SE
'97' R850GS-R |
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Sonu Flying Brick Rider
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 Posts: 395 Location: San Jose, CA
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Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 2:26 pm Post subject: Another satisfied user :-) |
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RAL88 wrote: | OK, so here are the amounts you want to use in the FD and Trans.
For the FD use 3 teaspoons which gives you a 5% mix
For the Trans use 5.5 teaspoons gives you a 3% mix
It was recommended to mix it well with a blender before adding so I bought the cheapest blender I could find and used that to mix it with.
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Friends,
Just wanted to report back as yet another satisfied user of the MoS2 (both in tranny & final drive). I've had it in for a month now (~1K miles). I noticed an IMMEDIATE improvement in shiftability. Note that I was already running synthetics so the extent of the improvement is truly remarkable. The standard BMW "clunk" is gone and it is near (but not quite) Jap bike flickability. For me this is the perfect response. I dont care for the "hot knife thru butter" flickability of Jap bikes.
Unlike others I have not seen the flicability improve with mileage but I'm happy with it as is.
If I was doing this again I would certainly order the WS2 since it can be used in engine oil as well (I'm a PhD in Materials Science & took a look at the structure of these materials). I happen to have bought the MoS2 so need to stick with it.
Sanjiv _________________ 1997 K1100LT "Ziggy" _GarminGPS_Corbin saddle_K Guards _Hyperlights_Fog lights_Eastern Beaver Relays_Cee Bailey_4"speakers_Michelin PR4's_MoS2_Spiegler lines_TPMS_VDO
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jpberens1994K1100RS Flying Brick Rider
Joined: 06 Apr 2008 Posts: 784 Location: Hales Corners, WI. / Relocating to central FL.
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Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 2:30 pm Post subject: MoS2 |
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Sooooooooooooooo, where & how can that be purchased again? _________________ 1993 K1100RS that I'd rather be riding FAST!
2014 Moto Guzzi Norge |
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Sonu Flying Brick Rider
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 Posts: 395 Location: San Jose, CA
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jpberens1994K1100RS Flying Brick Rider
Joined: 06 Apr 2008 Posts: 784 Location: Hales Corners, WI. / Relocating to central FL.
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Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:50 pm Post subject: MoS2 for tran & final drive |
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Will do on Rich, thanks for link. _________________ 1993 K1100RS that I'd rather be riding FAST!
2014 Moto Guzzi Norge |
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sccommuter Flying Brick Rider
Joined: 25 Oct 2011 Posts: 155 Location: Metromess, Tx
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Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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will be doing a fluid change soon and I thought I would give the WS2 a try. Any one out there have some they want to sell? Enough for FD, tranny and engine fluids. would consider the moly if no WS2 available. _________________ 1995 K1100 LT
Illegitimi non Carborundum |
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grant93 Flying Brick Rider
Joined: 23 Mar 2013 Posts: 238 Location: Victoria - Australia
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Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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Gidday,
What about this stuff?, it is readily available here at my local store here in Oz and I am the sort of bloke that tends to over service his bike in regards to oils changes when i get them up and running
http://www.moreyoil.co.nz/moreys-heavy-duty-oil-stabilizer/
There is also the Lucus Oil brand of heavy duty oil stabilizer. _________________ Cheers Grant
1994 K1100RS
1981 R100RS
1978 R100RS
1928 Chevrolet tourer
www.montythe1928chevrolet.blogspot.com.au |
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sccommuter Flying Brick Rider
Joined: 25 Oct 2011 Posts: 155 Location: Metromess, Tx
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Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 10:16 am Post subject: |
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Grant,
don't think anyone is following this post anymore as I didn't get a response on my post. I'll be at the Hungry Mother gathering this week and I believe some of the folks attending have tried this. If I find out anything I'll pass it along to you. _________________ 1995 K1100 LT
Illegitimi non Carborundum |
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Ernie-NH Flying Brick Rider
Joined: 14 Oct 2009 Posts: 982 Location: Bristol, New Hampshire
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Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:48 am Post subject: |
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Hi Grant... Hi "scc..."
I have used the "Guard Dog" in my Airhead ( '76 R100/7 Engine and FD) and in my Jap bikes... but never in the "K".. I have used WS2 in the FD of the "K" and in the tranny, but not in the engine as yet. I have nothing bad to say about either GD or the WS2.. The Guard Dog product has been recommended for years by Oak Oakelshen who is considered to be the foremost authority on Airheads and Oilheads mechanics in the USA, and has been awarded the "Friend of the Mark" by BMW for his dedication, knowledge and competence.
However, before putting any unknown product into the 'works' of any of my machines, I would first research the chemistry and alleged performance of the product and then go to "Bob the Oilman" online and see what he has to offer on the product either pro or con ! I will say, that one product that I use in all my engines, including my truck, is a product called "Engine Restore" which is available in all automotive supply stores. Both my trucks have over 300k miles and are good milage vehicles ( 23 to 26 mpg on 4 cylinders and highway speeds ) plus my oldest Kawasaki Vulcan 1500 has more than 160k and NEVER had an engine overhaul and neither has my '82 Yamaha Virago with 140k..! So I tend to believe the RESTORE is helping to preserve my engines.
With respect to the WS2.. as a research engineer ( almost 40 years ) for a large seal supplier in Germany, I have tested engines, transmissions, drives, and braking components of all types ( mostly cars and heavy equipment, but a few motorcycles for BMW and Ducatti as well) and have used WS2 in the lab to assure that the we were in fact testing the seals and NOT the component into which they were installed. From this, I can say that WS2 out performed MoS2 in all respects with the exception of price. When a system having WS2 in its 'lube pkg' sits idle for several days the particles despite their nano size will develop a WS2 rich cloud at the lowest level of the system. An identical system using MoS2 in its 'lube pkg' will see a 'moly rich' sludge develop which can take considerable time on start-up to be again assimilated by the lube-pkg. In contrast, the nano-particulate cloud of WS2 will be drawn almost instantly back into circulation... One other property is that MoS2 exists mostly in micro-platelet ( not nano particulate form) and these platelets tend to agglomerate anywhere that the 'lube stream' is either idle or low-flow, especially in transmissions..I never saw any evidence that the WS2 accumulated any any region of any system, meaning that the WS2 was always at work in the 'lube pkg'.. For what its worth, those are my observations...
While still living in Germany, I purchased all my WS2 materials in Canada. If you need it, I will dig out the addresses...
Best regards, ride safe.....// Ernie in NH _________________ AMA,, American Deaf Bikers
Airhead Beemers Club
'11 G650gs
'95 K1100LT
'76 R100/7 |
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grant93 Flying Brick Rider
Joined: 23 Mar 2013 Posts: 238 Location: Victoria - Australia
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Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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Gidday fellas,
sccommuter: no problems at all with that..
Ernie in NH: Many thanks for the detailed response and also written in a way that so I that i could slightly get my head around it all...
Yes please forward thru an address to me when you have a spare minute, that would he handy to keep on file..
Cheers Grant _________________ Cheers Grant
1994 K1100RS
1981 R100RS
1978 R100RS
1928 Chevrolet tourer
www.montythe1928chevrolet.blogspot.com.au |
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