| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
robleyd
Flying Brick Rider
Joined: 23 Jul 2009
Posts: 398
Location: Murbko, Australia
|
 Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 11:27 pm Post subject: Windscreen electrical problems [Resolved] |
 |
|
I have two windscreen motors, both of which happily operate when power is applied off the bike, but problems when attached to the bike. I've checked the fuses - they are OK. There's a relay somewhere that I can hear clicking in one direction only when operating the up/down switch.
I have power at the up/down wires, with switch movement, on the three wire side of the connector block on the bike but no power on the two wire side; in fact both of those appear to be earthed according to my multimeter.
Where the heck is the relay; it isn't shown in Duck's relay diagram? And/or what else should I check?
_________________
David, owner of:
1996 K1100 LT
Last edited by robleyd on Wed Aug 04, 2010 3:28 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Flying Duck
PsyKotic Waterfowl
Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Posts: 10087
Location: Bumf***, WA
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 1:46 am Post subject: |
|
|
The up and down relays are mounted in the windscreen assembly, not in the relay box. They are small and gray in color.
I'll email you a wiring diagram for the windscreen.
_________________
93 LT (x2)
94 RS
86-97 K75F(K75/100/1100 Frankenbrick)
86 K75C w/paralever, hi perf cams,TURBO!
91 & 92 K75Ss
91 K1
86 custom K100
14 WR250R
IBA #17739 (SS1K, BBG, 50CC)
Buy parts HERE |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
robleyd
Flying Brick Rider
Joined: 23 Jul 2009
Posts: 398
Location: Murbko, Australia
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 1:56 am Post subject: |
|
|
Email received, thanks; image above is not rendering tho...
Edit - found the image thanks
_________________
David, owner of:
1996 K1100 LT |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
robleyd
Flying Brick Rider
Joined: 23 Jul 2009
Posts: 398
Location: Murbko, Australia
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 3:10 am Post subject: |
|
|
Update - found the relays - they are hanging in the middle of all the other mess of wiring in the fairing. Both relays activate off the bike, but in situ only the down relay clicks, so it sounds like something between the switch and the relays. Got the switch off and decided to leave dismantling that for the morning, so I can ask if I'm likely to strike any problems with that. I have a vision of small springs and balls going in diverse directions.
_________________
David, owner of:
1996 K1100 LT |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jim
Site Admin
Joined: 17 May 2003
Posts: 3841
Location: WHERETHEFUNNEVERENDS
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 3:14 am Post subject: |
|
|
Nah - the dash switches are pretty easy to take apart, clean and put back together. Just go easy popping the little clips on the side - you'll see how it works.
_________________
Jim
1997 K1100LTSE 94,000 - has gremlins!
1995 R100RT Classic 16,650 crashed - repairing
1992 K75RTP 46,000
"We shall not all die, but we shall all be changed."
Last edited by Jim on Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:57 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Flying Duck
PsyKotic Waterfowl
Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Posts: 10087
Location: Bumf***, WA
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:43 am Post subject: |
|
|
It depends upon which switch you're talking about. Do you have the dash switch or the one built into the left combo switch? If it's the latter the then your assumption about a small ball and springs is correct.
If it's the dash switch then there's a post by me in the tech stickies about rehabbing those.
_________________
93 LT (x2)
94 RS
86-97 K75F(K75/100/1100 Frankenbrick)
86 K75C w/paralever, hi perf cams,TURBO!
91 & 92 K75Ss
91 K1
86 custom K100
14 WR250R
IBA #17739 (SS1K, BBG, 50CC)
Buy parts HERE |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
robleyd
Flying Brick Rider
Joined: 23 Jul 2009
Posts: 398
Location: Murbko, Australia
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 9:07 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Regrettably its the left combo switch. So I'll work through and eliminate anything else possible before I tackle dismantling that.
Dash switches I have already conquered thanks to Duck's guide.
_________________
David, owner of:
1996 K1100 LT |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Flying Duck
PsyKotic Waterfowl
Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Posts: 10087
Location: Bumf***, WA
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 9:31 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| robleyd wrote: | Regrettably its the left combo switch. So I'll work through and eliminate anything else possible before I tackle dismantling that.
Dash switches I have already conquered thanks to Duck's guide. |
You shouldn't need to dismantle the left combo switch to test it. Find it's three wire connector under the tank and test for continuity when you press the switch. Use the wiring diagram I emailed you to figure out the wire colors.
If you have to take it apart then I HIGHLY recommend doing it off-bike in a shoebox. There's a tiny little ballbearing on a spring under the switch that is VERY easy to lose. (There's one on the floor of my garage somewhere.  )
_________________
93 LT (x2)
94 RS
86-97 K75F(K75/100/1100 Frankenbrick)
86 K75C w/paralever, hi perf cams,TURBO!
91 & 92 K75Ss
91 K1
86 custom K100
14 WR250R
IBA #17739 (SS1K, BBG, 50CC)
Buy parts HERE |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
robleyd
Flying Brick Rider
Joined: 23 Jul 2009
Posts: 398
Location: Murbko, Australia
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 4:42 am Post subject: |
|
|
Further update:
Switch tests out OK. Relays appear to test OK; both are closed circuit until power is applied across the switch terminals and they both go open circuit.
Now the strange part - with the relays in place I can get the screen to go in one direction; I can only get it to reverse by transposing the relays?? They are both identical by part number and by behaviour, so I really don't understand what is going on here.
The initial problem, which appeared some months after I acquired the bike, was that my old motor would go up but not down - it appeared (??) that the motor was malfunctioning in one direction. For what it is worth, both my old motor and the new one acquired now both work perfectly, with the requirement of swapping the relays to reverse direction.
I'm not sure where to go from here, apart from the auto electrician?
_________________
David, owner of:
1996 K1100 LT |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Scott_Anderson
Site Admin
Joined: 05 Sep 2006
Posts: 3119
Location: Central Iowa, USA
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 8:25 am Post subject: |
|
|
| robleyd wrote: | Further update:
Switch tests out OK. Relays appear to test OK; both are closed circuit until power is applied across the switch terminals and they both go open circuit.
|
I havent' looked at a diagram lately, but as an electrician, it doesn't sound right that you say they BOTH go "open circuit" with power applied.
I would think that you would have one go closed for up and then the other one go closed for down. Not both go open at the same time, except with power removed.
I'll try and find a schematic to review.
_________________
Ride safe.
1995 K1100LT 0302044
1997 R1100RT ZC62149
2017 FLHTK Ultra Limited
Garmin StreetPilot 2820
Garmin Zumo 550
Garmin Zumo XT
"One who does not ask questions is ashamed to learn" Danish proverb
1997 K1100LT 0302488(R.I.P.) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
robleyd
Flying Brick Rider
Joined: 23 Jul 2009
Posts: 398
Location: Murbko, Australia
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 8:28 am Post subject: |
|
|
Scott - that is in a bench testing situation, not on the bike.
_________________
David, owner of:
1996 K1100 LT |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
tibbe
Flying Brick Rider
Joined: 14 Jul 2003
Posts: 190
Location: Lulea Sweden
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 3:14 am Post subject: |
|
|
Hi
It's a usefull collection of wrenching docs on http://wbsp.arb.ltu.se/EuroPrez/docs/k11-help/k11-Workshop-supplement.zip/view including wiring diagram of the windscreen coontrol.
A comment, when you pressing the switch only one of the relays should sound, and when pressing in the other direction only the other relay.
Both relays are ON-ON relays with of course 2 outputs. Most relays are OFF-ON with 1 output.
PS. it's doesn't hurt to clean the connectors of relays and wires. Shure that there are some stories in this community about this.
/Tibbe |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
robleyd
Flying Brick Rider
Joined: 23 Jul 2009
Posts: 398
Location: Murbko, Australia
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 4:43 am Post subject: |
|
|
Thanks for that - downloaded the zip - now to update my schoolboy German 
I had assumed the relays were just ON/OFF when I tested, so possibly the testing was flawed. Thinking back, the symptoms seem to point to a bad relay.
Anyway, I have ordered two new relays and we'll see what happens when they arrive and are installed.
_________________
David, owner of:
1996 K1100 LT |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
tibbe
Flying Brick Rider
Joined: 14 Jul 2003
Posts: 190
Location: Lulea Sweden
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 12:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Swap the position of the relays and chech if the windscreen goes the other direction and only in one direction.
This could indicate on a broken relay.
If you still have the same symthom it could be a broken wire from the switch to the relays or a broken switch.
Just a thought. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
robleyd
Flying Brick Rider
Joined: 23 Jul 2009
Posts: 398
Location: Murbko, Australia
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 8:01 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | Swap the position of the relays and chech if the windscreen goes the other direction and only in one direction. |
That is exactly what happens 
New relays are on the way so I'll see how they go.
_________________
David, owner of:
1996 K1100 LT |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
beemeerr11
Flying Brick Rider
Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Posts: 168
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 10:39 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| robleyd wrote: | | Quote: | | Swap the position of the relays and chech if the windscreen goes the other direction and only in one direction. |
That is exactly what happens
New relays are on the way so I'll see how they go. |
Robleyd,
Narva part number 68070 available at Repco etc for a fraction of the cost of a genuine?
Lou
95LT |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
robleyd
Flying Brick Rider
Joined: 23 Jul 2009
Posts: 398
Location: Murbko, Australia
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 12:12 am Post subject: |
|
|
Now you tell me $15 each plus postage from Munich Motorcycles.
_________________
David, owner of:
1996 K1100 LT |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rbm
Mad Brick Rider
Joined: 02 Jun 2009
Posts: 115
Location: Toronto
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 8:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
| robleyd wrote: | | Now the strange part - with the relays in place I can get the screen to go in one direction; I can only get it to reverse by transposing the relays?? They are both identical by part number and by behaviour, so I really don't understand what is going on here. |
The windshield motor reverses because the relays reverse the polarity of the DC signal going to the motor. If the problem moves with one of the relays, then the problem is most likely in the relay. The relay that allows the motor to operate is the good relay; the other is most likely bad.
The relays are 1FormC (single-pole double throw) configuration. A schematic of the relays that I used in my windshield retrofit to my K100RT is shown below for illustration:
That means that with power removed from the relay coil, there should be continuity between two of the relay contacts -- Terminal 30 and Terminal 87A in automotive terminology. Take an ohmmeter and test for near zero resistance between two terminals. With power applied to the relay coil, there should be continuity between the other contact and the common terminal. I might supect that you are going to read open circuit between one set of contacts. The relay contacts may have burnt out, especially if you move the windshield under load repeatedly.
The control circuit is really simple. The relay common contact goes to the motor; the normally closed contact is connected to a source of ground and the normally open contact is connected to a source of +12 volts. The relay coils are connected in series with the actuator switch on the handlebars and with the limit switch inside the motor gear housing. In non-engaged mode, both motor leads are connectd to ground through the normally-closed contacts on the realys. When the actuator switch is pressed in any direction, +12 volts is switched to the appropriate motor lead (through the appropriate relay) and the motor travels in that direction until the limit switch breaks the circuit to the relay coil and the motor stops.
Test the motor on the bench by touching +12 volts and ground to its terminals; it should travel in one direction. Reverse the polarity and the motor should rotate in the opposite direction. If this works, the motor is functional.
Test the relays off the bench by looking for near zero continuity between two of the terminals. If you locate terminals with about 400 ohms resistance, you've located the coil terminals. Applying +12 volts and ground to the coil contacts (Terminals 85 and 86) should engage the relay. Look for near zero continuity between one of the previous contact terminals (the common terminal designated 30) and the other terminal. If you can't find this continuity, then it is probable that the relay contacts have failed. The bad relay must be replaced.
If the realys test OK individually, test the circuit in-situ by connecting yo12 volts and ground to the UP relay coil. The motor should rotate in the Up direction. If it does not, then there is a broken wire in the motor circuit. Do the same for the DOWN relay. The same conclusions can be drawn if the motor does not move in the Down direction.
What's left after these tests are performed and succeeed is the limit switch circuit.
Above is the micro limit switches on the motor gear housing. The mircoswitches are stacked and there are two cam followers -- one for UP and the other for DOWN. The cam follower allows the microswitch to open when the mechanical limit is reached. in any other position, there is continuity between all three wires -- brown, yellow/black and yellow/brown. At Up limit, there should be open circuit between brown and yellow/black. In Down limit, there should be open circuit between brown and yellow/brown. Any other continuity reading may indicate bad switches or mechanical problems like the cam follower is stcuk because of dirt.
Try these tests to isolate your failing component. Good luck.
_________________
- Robert
1987 K75 @k75retro.blogspot.ca
2011 Moto Guzzi V7 Racer |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Al.
Flying Brick Rider
Joined: 28 Oct 2005
Posts: 383
Location: West of Ireland
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 7:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
are the tubes clean - my screen locked solid because the tubes were rusty inside. I tried to clean them out but I had to get new ones.
If it moves one way only and then not at all - sounds to me maybe seized. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
robleyd
Flying Brick Rider
Joined: 23 Jul 2009
Posts: 398
Location: Murbko, Australia
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 7:48 pm Post subject: |
|
|
No, the mechanism has all been dismantled and cleaned a few months ago when I first started having problems. Odds are its a relay based on the symptoms - i.e. works in on direction, swap the relays and works in the other direction. New relays should hopefully arrive today, then we'll see.
BTW thanks to rbm for the detailed explanation - that deserves to be a tech sticky.
_________________
David, owner of:
1996 K1100 LT |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
