K11 Owners Group

adoria · Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:54 pm Post subject: radiator fan always on

i just got my first k1100 working and street worth; however, the radiator fan is always on and i do not see any hardwired "hot wire" or switch mod to the fan.

i have "hot water/boil tested" the thermostat and i did see that it expanded when heated up.

i have tested the fan relay and it is working properly.

i have motronic 2.1. i measured the radiator fan relay (pin 16) while the bike was in operation from the backside of the motronic wiring harness plug. the pin goes from 0 volts when off to 0.68 volts when started/running, probably enough to trip the fan relay.

i also measured coolant sensor (pin 21). it was at 3.07 volts when the bike was cold and i saw it drop down to 2.63 volts as i let the bike begin to warm up for a minute. i tried putting ground to this pin to force it to 0 volt and also forcing it to 12V (using + battery pole). i saw no change in the fan's behavior (e.g. always on).

here is a motronic 2.1 schematic that i translated from german to english (https://www.dropbox.com/s/onbsv20l7fxv4lq/Motronic%20Ma2.1with%20Cat.pdf)

anyone have ideas?
many thanks
_________________
-andre
______________________
1995 BMW K1100LT

2005 Suzuki V-Strom DL1000
2002 Honda Shadow 750 A.C.E.
1983 Honda Sabre 750 V-4

Scott_Anderson · Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:47 pm Post subject:

well what I can tell you from when I added a fan switch to my '95LT, the fan relay had fused power to the relay then the blue/yellow wire went to the motronic to be grounded to activate the relay.
Sounds to me like the motronic is grounding the blue/yellow wire when it shouldn't be.
There are 2 engine temp sensors on the bikes.
One is located at the bottom of the water/oil pump, this one is for the temp gauge.
The other one is located behind the radiator on the topside of the engine. This one is the one the motronic uses for the fuel mixture and fan control.
I think if you do a search here there should be a write up on testing the sensor.
There is a write up on testing the fan relay output of the motronic. This would at least tell you if the motronic is able to turn the fan on/off, or if the actual fan control is stuck.
Have you disconnected the blue/yellow at the relay to see if maybe the relay is stuck by chance......
_________________
Ride safe.

1995 K1100LT 0302044
2017 FLHTK Ultra Limited
Garmin StreetPilot 2820
Garmin Zumo 550
Garmin Zumo XT
"One who does not ask questions is ashamed to learn" Danish proverb
1997 K1100LT 0302488(R.I.P.)
1997 R1100RT ZC62149(sold)

adoria · Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:30 pm Post subject:

i did not disconnect the blue/yellow wire at the relay plug. i just pulled the relay out and checked that applying voltage across it (using 12 volt battery) and it gave continuity across the load pins AND no continuity when the 12 volts was removed from the signaling pins. so the relay worked as a relay should.

would disconnecting the blue/yellow wire change anything? it seems to me like i've already verified the relay is not stuck from the above mentioned procedure.

thank you for the other info. i will search around for testing procedures on the temperature sensors to ensure their voltage output is within spec.

on a side note, i took the bike for it's first test ride post new clutch install and working rear brake(new line and master cyl). it was working fine until the rear brake locked up on me at 35mph and would not release. weeee! i fishtailed around coming to a sudden stop hoping the car behind me did not plow me over. i managed not to dump her and avoid harm. it got the heart racing though. this bike has no abs anymore and i put new master cylinders (front and back) and new stainless steel brake lines (front and back) recently. front brake has had no issues, but i think the calipers need to be rebuilt after yesterday's rear brake incident.
i could not find any rebuild kits yet. do you have recommendations? (preferably avoiding the bmw dealership expensive parts price experience)
_________________
-andre
______________________
1995 BMW K1100LT

2005 Suzuki V-Strom DL1000
2002 Honda Shadow 750 A.C.E.
1983 Honda Sabre 750 V-4

Scott_Anderson · Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 6:07 pm Post subject:

With the rear brake, it is verrrry touchy to incorrect adjustment, for the very problem you experienced.

If the mc piston can't return far enough, the fluid pressure in the lines won't relieve. Which can happen if the pedal free travel is set too tight.

A few members can attest to rubber boot fires caused by overheated rear brake disks.

As far as the relay goes, if you tested it on bench you should be good with that.
The question would be then what is causing the motronic to keep the blue/yellow grounded.

It would be interesting to know how the diagnostic fan cycle test turns out.
If the fan cycles ok under the test then I'd be looking at the wiring and/or the engine temp sensor as the cause.
If the fan still stays on constant during the diagnostic test, I'd say that the motronic controller itself is at fault.

Here's from our own tech stickies for diagnostic tests.
http://www.k11og.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2110
_________________
Ride safe.

1995 K1100LT 0302044
2017 FLHTK Ultra Limited
Garmin StreetPilot 2820
Garmin Zumo 550
Garmin Zumo XT
"One who does not ask questions is ashamed to learn" Danish proverb
1997 K1100LT 0302488(R.I.P.)
1997 R1100RT ZC62149(sold)

adoria · Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 8:01 pm Post subject:

fan test failed = got the 3333 to flash on the temp light, but the fan stays on constantly. shucks. i wonder if having a manual fan switch would "be just fine" instead of dealing with buying a different motronic?

my motronic will not get rid of code 1133 = 1133 No signal from Hall Sensor #2 (Lower or 180° Sensor, Coil 2/3). i tested both hall sensors with a 12V LED hooked to the hall sensor pin on back side of the motronic connector. both hall sensors seem to be working/flashing fine. i tried to start the bike a couple times to clear the code, but it will not go away.

thank you for the brake adjustment sensitivity heads up. im am happy i had no boot fire. the rear brake was feeling rather tight before the incident occurred. maybe that is all it was. however, checking out the calipers is not going to hurt anything (i hope=i dont accidentally break something in doing so).

i re-bled the brakes again and noticed little black particles coming out the bleed nipple with the fluid. the brakes have NEW LINES(stainless steel) AND NEW MASTER CYLINDERS, both front and back. could it be that the black particles are deteriorated o-rings/rubbers within the old brake calipers? BUT damn, there was enough pressure to cause the rear to lock up at 35 mph, so maybe the piston seals/rubber innards are still good. any other thoughts?
_________________
-andre
______________________
1995 BMW K1100LT

2005 Suzuki V-Strom DL1000
2002 Honda Shadow 750 A.C.E.
1983 Honda Sabre 750 V-4

Hobo · Joined: 16 Mar 2013 Posts: 5 Location: PA

If the rear brakes are dragging, it can generate enough heat to expand/boil the fluid, causing pressure that further closes the caliper...hence the lockup. I'm new to BMWs having just bought my first k1100, but have wrenched on old Harleys for about 20 years and have experienced caliper lockup from dragging brakes on a few bikes.

Just a thought...

adoria · Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:53 pm Post subject:

i dont recall dragging, but that's a good point to be aware of. i took apart the caliper. it looks good. had little bits of the old black rubber brake line. i cleaned up the calipers and piston and they look good like this:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/fr6ctwoz4hf5hez/2013-03-21%2017.58.21.jpg
https://www.dropbox.com/s/jw8r2xevsmke5dv/2013-03-21%2017.58.29.jpg

the rear brake pads have 3mm of material left (1.5mm is min limit), but they look a little micro pitted on the pad surface:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/uvgm9dwc34jyf9a/2013-03-21%2019.51.26.jpg
https://www.dropbox.com/s/xwn6vyvcrbakfho/2013-03-21%2019.51.34.jpg

what is the thought of these pads? still ok to use? seems like a decent amount of material left.

and a brake disc question:
my rear brake disc is 4.5mm thick.
my front brake discs are both 4.5mm as well.
my k-bike clymer manual does not give model specific specs for discs. it just says standard disc thickness for rear or front is 4.0-4.04mm and min is 3.55mm. since the standard is less than my currently used discs, i am confused...something seems fishy(bad manual info??) does anyone know what the k1100lt rear and front brake discs standard and minimum thicknesses are?

im hoping pads and discs are still fine to use. they are rather expensive parts...but much much cheaper than a body and/or an accident fo sho!
_________________
-andre
______________________
1995 BMW K1100LT

2005 Suzuki V-Strom DL1000
2002 Honda Shadow 750 A.C.E.
1983 Honda Sabre 750 V-4

drikko · Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 12:55 am Post subject:

The pads look OK, but they don't cost a lot to replace, just don't go to BMW. The rear pads are as common as, used on swags of bikes, Brembo F08 calipers. The front ones are common as well, all available from fleabay. If you re-use them, then roughen them up on a flat concrete slab, just hold them face down and rub em around a bit till the shiney stuff is gone.

The minimum disc thickness should be stamped on the disc, either on the carrier or the outside edge of the disc itself. If you felt any pulsing from the disk then it needs to be ground flat. If you have them ground flat then automatically replace the pads.

Hey for your pics, hit the 'Img' button above the text box and paste the url then the image button again to add [img]blah blah[/img] and it will show in the post.
_________________
K1100RS '97
Laverda RGS 1000 '84
Jim Young Trailer Sailer 5.7M WB

DISCLAIMER:- Anything I say may have been when I was drunk so please don't take it personally.

'Bigamy is having one wife/husband too many. Monogamy is the same.'
Oscar Wilde

drikko · Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:00 am Post subject:

Meant to add, Beavelheaven.com has reseal kits for our rear calipers at the moment for $13.70 each. I bought a whole swag of them for all my bikes. There's 3 on the Ducrappi, 3 on the Laverda and 1 on the K11. and some spares.

https://store.bevelheaven.com/brake-related-parts/brembo-f08-seal-kit-38mm-piston-size/

edit: ah crap they're back up to $20, glad I bought them when I did!!
_________________
K1100RS '97
Laverda RGS 1000 '84
Jim Young Trailer Sailer 5.7M WB

DISCLAIMER:- Anything I say may have been when I was drunk so please don't take it personally.

'Bigamy is having one wife/husband too many. Monogamy is the same.'
Oscar Wilde

Scott_Anderson · Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 7:13 am Post subject:

adoria · Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:30 am Post subject:

thanks for the info on code 1133, scott. the bike was not started. it seems freakin' obvious to me now that the bike must be running to test the hall sensors(i mean, i did do my hall sensor led flash/test that way...doh!).

i agree with you on the fan issue. targeting "what is causing the fan to be always on (computer?? temp sensor??)?" is THE QUESTION. and if it is the computer, $300 is much more affordable then the local bmw dealer.

im curious where and what type of switch people mounted manual fan switches?
i was thinking i could use the existing abs switch. cuz i pulled the abs system off the bike.
ABS:
the abs system on my bike had apparently(says previous owner) not been working for at least 7 years (ABS1...yes that is ABS1 on a 1995 that should have ABS2). considering abs1 is known to be problematic the cost of fixing any possibly broken abs pumps/sensors/computers and troubleshooting time i decided to pull it off the bike. i dont know if the pumps go bad from sitting too long?
i was thinking to sell the parts. after that lock up, im worried that i should have tried to fix the abs cheap first?
do people feel i'd be fine with just a properly adjusted(not too stiff rear brake) non-brake system?

i appreciate the help. i leave in a week for france for 1.5 months working there and staying with my gf(she's french). i am aggressively trying to get the bike in great running condition before i leave if possible for when the two of us return later. a summer trip to canada from san diego on the k1100 is the plan.
_________________
-andre
______________________
1995 BMW K1100LT

2005 Suzuki V-Strom DL1000
2002 Honda Shadow 750 A.C.E.
1983 Honda Sabre 750 V-4

Scott_Anderson · Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 6:20 pm Post subject:

Scott_Anderson · Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:04 pm Post subject:

Something that really is sticking in the back of my mind and has me wondering...........How can your bike have both ABS1 and motronic 2.1 but yet be a '95.

Have you run your vin thru a decoder to confirm the mfg date.

It sounds to me like it may be a very late '93 hold over that was never titled for the first time till '95.
_________________
Ride safe.

1995 K1100LT 0302044
2017 FLHTK Ultra Limited
Garmin StreetPilot 2820
Garmin Zumo 550
Garmin Zumo XT
"One who does not ask questions is ashamed to learn" Danish proverb
1997 K1100LT 0302488(R.I.P.)
1997 R1100RT ZC62149(sold)

adoria · Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:20 pm Post subject:

oh my friend, this 93/95 issue has haunted me as well. i dont know what to make of it. i have ran the vin stamped into the metal frame and it shows 1995.

my vin is: WB1053609S0301702

the registration is 1995 of course. i just do not know. everything about the bike is from the 1993 model.

i have a dilemma. i purchased this bike not running for $1200. i've put ~$1700 in parts into it (did my own wrenching). = $2900. my bike has 42k miles, new clutch, fluids, spline lube, new stainless steel flex brake lines, abs1 system removed, new brake master cylinders, and semi worn tires and at minimum limit brake discs (all 3).

then i see this ad in my city: http://sandiego.craigslist.org/nsd/mcy/3652986997.html
i laughed! i do not have the top box top backrest/integrated rear speakers his bike has. nor do i have the corbin seat (just the fancy bmw dual saddle seat). plus his bike has less worn tires and possibly abs 2 working. is running and has 45k miles.

i wondering if i should buy his bike to keep, swap out some of my newer parts (not the clutch obviously), and flip mine...hoping i can get ~$3300 for it within the next 10 months. what do you think of this idea?
_________________
-andre
______________________
1995 BMW K1100LT

2005 Suzuki V-Strom DL1000
2002 Honda Shadow 750 A.C.E.
1983 Honda Sabre 750 V-4

Jim · Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:35 pm Post subject:

Andre - the black bits in the brake fluid could be left over from the old brake lines deteriorating.
_________________
Jim
1997 K1100LTSE 94,000 - still has gremlins!
1995 R100RT Classic 16,650 crashed - repaired!
1992 K75RTP 46,000

"We shall not all die, but we shall all be changed."

adoria · Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:45 pm Post subject:

jim: you are 110% correct. i disassembled the rear caliper and it had lots of little rubber bits from the old hose. cleaned them out and the seals/pistons looked fine. good as new. thanks.

i called up the guy with the same bike for sale. see my last previous posting before this one for details of my dilemma. here is his listing for his k1100: http://sandiego.craigslist.org/nsd/mcy/3652986997.html

the seller said he has had the bike for 6 months does not know much about the bike. it's running fine. he also bought an r80 recently too and just likes the r80 over the kbike. he said the kbike is too tall/big/heavy for him. his kbike does not have rear speakers and the tach gauge is stuck, but it has new tires AND the abs system seems to be working (no illuminated hazard light...i would check it using the diagnostic pin).

i dont know if i should buy his kbike, swap out my new parts i use to fix/rebuild my kbike, and sell my kbike. what would you do?
_________________
-andre
______________________
1995 BMW K1100LT

2005 Suzuki V-Strom DL1000
2002 Honda Shadow 750 A.C.E.
1983 Honda Sabre 750 V-4

Scott_Anderson · Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 9:17 am Post subject:

If you have the time and space and available funds, go for it.

While the add says 2 lockable storage in the fairing makes me suspect that the radio has been removed. Not a big loss.
I've actually thought about removing the radio out of my '97.(I added it after I bought the bike as it wasn't factory installed)
Since I've gone ipod with blue-tooth I haven't used it.

I also wonder why no pictures of the left side of the bike............

The side cases are not original to the bike. The locks are the wrong type and the lids are not painted like the top case. I can't say for certain if the locks are the original type 1 or type 2 style, but they are definitely not the type 3 that they should be. Maybe these cases came off of the R80 that he bought, hard to say.

For the price you would be hard to turn it down, if nothing else for extra parts.
_________________
Ride safe.

1995 K1100LT 0302044
2017 FLHTK Ultra Limited
Garmin StreetPilot 2820
Garmin Zumo 550
Garmin Zumo XT
"One who does not ask questions is ashamed to learn" Danish proverb
1997 K1100LT 0302488(R.I.P.)
1997 R1100RT ZC62149(sold)

Jim · Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 9:23 am Post subject:

Andre - I'd buy the '95 - that's a steal! Don't know if you can get $3,300.00 for yours...

The '95 has rear speaker grills - I'd be surprised if the speakers aren't there. If they're missing, they're easy enough to get and install. He probably doesn't know where the fader is...

Tim (Midland Section) · Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 2:56 pm Post subject:

adoria · Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 4:50 pm Post subject:

thanks guys. im headed to his home now with my tools AND MONEY! hopefully he will not get worried when i begin pulling codes/tests for the motronic/abs/fan/tps, check brake disc thickness, and do a compression check.

is the way to test the ABS2 system is to do a low speed slam on the brakes and feel for pulsing by the abs pump? or should the abs codes be enough?
_________________
-andre
______________________
1995 BMW K1100LT

2005 Suzuki V-Strom DL1000
2002 Honda Shadow 750 A.C.E.
1983 Honda Sabre 750 V-4